00:00:01:18 - 00:00:31:17 Unknown Welcome to the On Record podcast. This is a podcast where we talk with professionals and subject matter experts from diverse markets that are using video and audio in innovative ways to support their organization's objectives. My name is Mike Anzalone and my co-host today is Andy Simmons. Today our guest is Joe Kondras and Joe is the associate director of learning environments at Texas Women's University. 00:00:31:18 - 00:00:53:19 Unknown Welcome, Joe. Hey, thank you very much. Glad to be here. Yeah, we're really excited to, to have you here. So, Joe, before we dive into your work with video, could you share a little bit about your professional journey? And what led you to your current role at Texas Women's University? Sure. Well, that'll take me back a little bit. 00:00:53:21 - 00:01:23:11 Unknown I am, here at Texas Women's University, approximately, 18, 17 to 18 years right now. Actually had a career in higher education in my 30s. And I worked in student life at the time at my alma mater for several years. And during that period of time, I actually got interested into compute and computers. It was very, back then in the windows 95 days. 00:01:23:11 - 00:01:49:15 Unknown And so I started to become very astute, if you will. You know, computers just came easy to me. And not everybody had a computer back then. So it was a good time to get into the field. And I started stretching my wings into the field of computers. And ended up being able to combine that experience of, higher education atmosphere in that part of my career with a computing career. 00:01:49:17 - 00:02:12:21 Unknown And eventually throughout the years of in IT, when I finally got here and I was looking for a position, I felt like I was a unique candidate to be able to combine the understanding of what it's like to work at a university and what the IT needs were of a, university staff, faculty, or even a student, because I was a student myself. 00:02:13:00 - 00:02:47:21 Unknown So I was able to combine those things together and get this, fantastic job at Texas Women's University, which I am also grateful for as, I'm actually approaching retirement here in the next few months. So, it's been a wonderful career, a great place. And, couldn't be more happy than to work, in, in a field that takes something like IT that doesn't necessarily have intrinsic meaning in itself to being able to take it to something, to where I'm now, not just doing IT. 00:02:48:01 - 00:03:12:17 Unknown I'm helping train up the next leaders, of of the future. And, so I love that part of IT in Higher Ed. Joe, you have an interesting title, Learning Environments. Can you tell us a little bit about those environments? And, you know, how does video fit into those specific environments that you're working in? You know, back in the day, we were just called classrooms and labs. 00:03:12:18 - 00:03:37:14 Unknown You know, you know, the, general classroom 1.0, if you will, faculty member up front, a bunch of rows of chairs and students staring at the at the instructor at the front of the room. But we're so much more, and we do so much more. Students don't just learn in that traditional classroom 1.0 environment. Students learn in multiple places around campus. 00:03:37:14 - 00:04:06:15 Unknown They can learn outside, if they're working in our butterfly garden. That's part of our botany, you know, thing going on. Or they might be learning in a dental hygiene clinic because they're learning to be hygienist. And we have to have, computing equipment or audio visual equipment in those spaces, too. It might be in a laboratory where they're learning how to do research or they're, you know, learning chemistry or whatever. 00:04:06:17 - 00:04:41:06 Unknown It's not just classrooms just seemed limited, if you will, to that that visual that we all get that it's it's the instructor up front, rows of students staring at the instructor listening and taking notes and watching whatever's happening on the technology in the room. So we felt that learning environment so much better portrays what is happening. Truly, at our university, we're not just a classroom inside of a traditional classroom. 00:04:41:08 - 00:05:04:09 Unknown We're educational spaces and diverse, types of atmospheres for diverse disciplines. When did you start to feel that change from, like, traditional classrooms and labs to kind of that the integration of technology throughout the university? So I started college about 20 years ago, and it was very much the way you initially described it. And so it must have been somewhere in the last two decades. 00:05:04:09 - 00:05:39:07 Unknown But I when and then how did that change kind of happen? I think probably, you know, I didn't always work in A/V in higher educational A/V I more so worked in IT. So I think when I got introduced to audiovisual and, you know, the classroom per se and the technology that is used inside of a classroom, I, ran into some faculty that were discovering this thing called an active learning environment or an active learning classroom. 00:05:39:09 - 00:06:04:03 Unknown You know, it's not that the technology is completely different. It's more the layout of the room now. It's more collaborative space between student to student and their student to student, education going on. There's more collaboration going on between students. That faculty member is no longer there, isn't there is no back row in an active learning classroom. 00:06:04:05 - 00:06:28:13 Unknown That's why they call it active learning. Because you better be on your game as a student, because that faculty member can walk up to you at any moment. So it was that different type of atmosphere that really interested me and made me think that, okay, the classroom is changing from the version one, that we all knew. Now the classroom is almost anywhere. 00:06:28:15 - 00:07:17:16 Unknown And so that was my first debut into, another style of, of learning environment, if you will, or space in which students can learn. And that's, I would say that that probably was introduced to me about ten years ago. And, that's when we had our first active learning classroom, and now we have more. But it was later that I discovered, hey, we have all types of different scenarios for discipline specific, whether it be or or OT or nursing, where we need to have technology in those spaces and embrace those spaces as a learning environment, to where we do whatever we can to enhance the pedagogy of our faculty in those 00:07:17:16 - 00:07:46:01 Unknown spaces and in those spaces. Joe, where do you see video fitting in? You know, I see video is kind of being a way that we all tend to learn in this century. It's just something that we're used to. I don't know about you, but if I, need to fix something or anything really, the first thing I want to do is watch a YouTube video as to how somebody else did it, and then I'm going to go do it myself, you know? 00:07:46:01 - 00:08:07:12 Unknown And it's the same thing for our students. They are. We all are. Is a is a, you know, as a country and probably a world at this point where we are used to learning, with the use of video, not only can we watch it once, but now we can record and watch it a second time or a third time. 00:08:07:14 - 00:08:31:16 Unknown You know, with lecture capture, software, we are able to have students be able to return to a class that where they think, you know, I didn't get that. I didn't get that point, of of what the faculty member was talking about. So I'm able to go back and review that. And we know that just reinforces a student's learning and improves, the learning outcomes of our students. 00:08:31:16 - 00:09:03:15 Unknown So video is become very important, not just in the classroom for that immediate initial introduction to a point or to, whatever, subject might be going on. But it's also instrumental for faculty or for students and for faculty, really, because their their goal is to have students learn. But it's instrumental for a student to be able to review key points of what they need to know and reinforce, for that next, hopefully not just the next test, but that's the first goal. 00:09:03:15 - 00:09:36:03 Unknown But hopefully, permanently. Sure. I suspect you've been involved with quite a few video implementations across campus in, I believe, Texas University. Texas Women's University has 3 or 4 campuses. Have you been involved with the implementation of video on all of those campuses? And maybe it to extend that question, like from a video from an enterprise level perspective, how do you see that fitting in? 00:09:36:05 - 00:10:02:05 Unknown We yes. So I wasn't the first person to introduce video onto, our campuses that did exist. You know, first, it started with the VHS strap to a cart with a television on it that was rushed across campus because a faculty member wanted to show some tape in a class. You know, that was a little bit before my time in the field. 00:10:02:06 - 00:10:34:21 Unknown But I was a I was soon after that, and that's when we were integrating video into classrooms. A lot of that was already accomplished. And I've been that second round of taking it from analog to small to big, to bigger to wide screens to digital, to recording systems, to integration into learning environment, learning management systems, you know, and the in the Canvas or Blackboard. 00:10:35:00 - 00:11:11:11 Unknown I've been a part of that, that next gen, if you will, of audio visual in the classroom. And yes, we we have three campuses. Two of them are in the medical districts of Dallas and Houston, and they are primarily health science centers. So we have our nursing PT and OT students in on those campuses. And we currently are in the midst of building a health science center here in Denton, which is the original location of Texas Women's University. 00:11:11:11 - 00:11:40:00 Unknown So yeah, so I've, I've been and am currently involved in implementing audio visual in spaces for learning. I don't know really what else to say about that other than, you know, there's a constant improvement process that we're going through. We avoid fads, if you will. You know, I can't I can't stand to see equipment purchased and then sit in a closet with, you know, you know, it's going to be a fad when you buy it. 00:11:40:00 - 00:12:08:05 Unknown You guys have to like, you know, be like more layers in terms of when you're buying it versus like early adopters or how do you know when something comes about? You're like, this seems faddish to me. I think from experience and seeing what's in the closet, to begin with. And when you're at that enterprise level that you are in a, in a place like a state university where I'm at, you rarely are an early adopter purposely, you know, it's not that you're not willing. 00:12:08:05 - 00:12:42:17 Unknown It's not that you're not aware of what cutting edge is, but you realize, you know, it's worth waiting to see whether it's going to be beta or VHS. You know, whether it's going to be DisplayPort or HDMI. You know, it's just, it's worth waiting and pausing to see how the dust settles a little bit. I think that technologies usually go through that big generational change at least in my years. 00:12:42:19 - 00:13:06:05 Unknown About every eight years, before something, you know, comes out onto the market before it's like, okay, this is the new standard. We are now going from four, four by three screens, you know, letter box, four by three screens to now. We are definitely going 16 nine widescreen. You know, it takes some time for that to happen. 00:13:06:07 - 00:13:33:05 Unknown So we don't always have to early adopt. We can pause for a little bit. We can investigate the new technology. But before you start spending, the university's money, in our case, the taxpayers money and the students dollars, I'd rather be sure that this is the way that we want to go. Unless it's for some reason, would take away from learning. 00:13:33:07 - 00:14:09:01 Unknown And that rarely is the case. But what do you mean by the outcome that I'm looking for when I introduce new technologies? Is this going to improve student learning? Is it going to, you know, are they going to leave? You're better informed and better educated by the use of this technology. And I have to weigh that against cost and, you know, the practical application of something, I'll throw, the technology out there, virtual reality, virtual reality came out. 00:14:09:02 - 00:14:33:14 Unknown It was like, cool. This is really cool. And it is it's a very cool technology, you know? But okay, we're going to start using in education. Fantastic. That sounds like a great idea. So I paused a little bit, and I watched a bunch of people hop on to bringing virtual reality onto their campuses, but it required more than what most people thought. 00:14:33:15 - 00:15:05:11 Unknown You just don't buy a headset and run, you know? It's not as simple as going to play a game. You need content, you know? Is the content available for the education that you need to do? How is it going to be used? Is every student going to have a headset? Is it going to be used every day, all day, or is it going to be like a field trip, you know, to where you go down to the virtual reality room once or twice a semester, you know, how well did that affect the student's learning outcome? 00:15:05:12 - 00:15:30:21 Unknown Well, they might really understand, you know, what it's like to go through, say, a naval vessel from the 1700s and what it look like back then. They may they might get a real visual experience because that's what the content that they were viewing happened to be about for a history class. But when it comes to their, you know, how well they can teach history. 00:15:31:01 - 00:15:59:03 Unknown To the next people or, you know, whatever they might be using that history degree for, you know, it has seems to have very little impact in the final outcome of a student of a student's learning. And it wasn't very practical. I mean, most people don't want to wear somebody else's headset, so that wasn't easy. It requires a lot of training to know how to create the scenario and get students ready to go view that so you no longer is. 00:15:59:04 - 00:16:32:02 Unknown It's not just something you pull into the classroom. It has to be something where the whole environment, you have a VR lab per se, to where you're bringing in a bunch of of students at one time, like I said, a couple times a semester, because there's only one place you can really do this, maybe two on campus. It has special personnel because the faculty member has no idea how to start this scenario up for them to watch this virtual reality experience or have that virtual reality experience. 00:16:32:04 - 00:16:49:08 Unknown So I'm getting a little off track here. But, when it comes to fads and trying to figure out how things are going to work and what you want to go in for and what you don't, it comes, I think, ease of use. If it's not easy to use, it's not going to be used. It's going to end up in a closet. 00:16:49:08 - 00:17:11:10 Unknown faculty members want to come in and teach. They don't want to set up technology. They don't want it to be burdensome. They just need to do what they need to do. Cost, you know, what is the cost going to be in a in ratio to the student outcomes. How well are they going to learn. How is this going to improve their education. 00:17:11:12 - 00:17:39:04 Unknown And that's how I decide when to make that move or if to make that move into a different technology. And of course the pressing the faculty, you know, higher education is a relationship. We don't dictate what technology goes into a room. We may suggest we may ask what you want to accomplish, but we wait for faculty to tell us what they need, and then we try to address it with the technologies that are available. 00:17:39:06 - 00:18:11:11 Unknown I wanted to, revisit your your comment on on the cost factor. You know, a lot of our listeners struggle with stakeholder buy in, particularly for new technology and how how have you successfully advocated video technology investments within your university? I think it goes back to what we mentioned earlier. And that's partnerships. You know, faculty don't just come into on the campus and teach, there's a whole list of people going on. 00:18:11:13 - 00:18:40:01 Unknown There's finance administration, right. There is the academic department, there is facilities maintenance. You know, who actually keep this, the lights on in these places. So I think that when you can get everybody to agree that we have one main purpose as a place of higher education, and that's to educate students. And then you begin to talk about where does that education happen and how does it happen. 00:18:40:03 - 00:19:05:10 Unknown It happens in a learning environment of one sort or another. And then you begin to demonstrate the need, as to what it's going to cost to keep these learning environments in proper working condition and come up with a plan. You get buy in, but I can't do it alone. I can't just go say, hey, I need money. 00:19:05:12 - 00:19:31:01 Unknown In order to be able to refresh these classrooms every 7 to 8 years with new technology, with updated technology, with just technology that isn't going to break every other day because it's just aged out. So I've been able to do that and I have only been able to do that in partnership with other departments. So currently I work pretty tightly with our academic affairs department to get things accomplished. 00:19:31:03 - 00:19:56:13 Unknown I am part of it, of course, and I have a relationship with finance and administration folks. So between all of those relationships, discussions can be heard and there's nothing that that really pushes things along to when things start breaking and you're like, look, I told you this, this was coming. You know, we're doing all we can. 00:19:56:17 - 00:20:20:18 Unknown There is no more bubble gum and Band-Aids. We're all out. You know that that shelf of old used equipment that we use as hot swaps. It's gone. But fortunately, some of the things that they need for me in order to be able to do this is a standardization, if you will, so that we can get some type of idea of an annual cost. 00:20:20:20 - 00:20:51:01 Unknown What is my budget going to be year after year after year? In order for me to keep these classrooms up to date and on a regular refresh cycle so that none of them or our rooms where the technology is more than ten years old and hopefully no more than eight years old. How do we accomplish that? How much is it going to cost because if they have that exact number knowing, you know, hey, every every year we want to add 5% for, you know, price increases. 00:20:51:06 - 00:21:12:12 Unknown If they have that then they can budget for it. Finance and administration needs a number, and we have to be the ones to create that number and give it to them. Then they then they will buy in. Academics needs to know that the technology that they use is going to be easy to use. It's going to be updated and it's going to work. 00:21:12:12 - 00:21:37:17 Unknown It's not going to slow them down from doing their job. If we can get them to know that and them to realize that, okay, we need to do this every 7 to 8 years, then we have their buy in. So making and creating those relationships and giving those people what they need to justify the financial investment into those spaces works. 00:21:37:19 - 00:22:05:15 Unknown At least it has worked at my university. There have been times, though, when the money's just not there, you know, if enrollment it goes down. If you happen to have a pandemic, you know, you you never know what's going to happen. So, yeah, you just have to be you have to be ready and, continue to build relationships, I think is the most important thing I've learned in my career. 00:22:05:19 - 00:22:23:02 Unknown Joe can we talk a little bit? You mentioned a few times, but can you talk a little bit more about, like your you and your department's role in measuring student outcomes? Right. You said you all have the same goal. We talked a little bit about like purchasing and and analyzing. You know, technology before you buy it. But how about after it's been implemented? 00:22:23:02 - 00:22:49:15 Unknown How do how do you know? And how does the university kind of know if, if it was a good investment based off of, like, what you'd want to see students actually accomplish? I'll be honest with you. You know, I don't typically measure student outcomes. I'm not, I'm not I'm not doing that. That kind of goes beyond my skill set and my resources to be doing deep research into student outcomes. 00:22:49:15 - 00:23:24:08 Unknown So I rely on the, proven outcomes of the manufacturer. Take Lecture Capture, you know, where you're in when you're in a room where you're recording that, that lecture and that is then made available to the students after the fact. We can look at how much and how often a video is watched, how often it's used. But I don't necessarily see a student's grades, but the manufacturer of these devices and software systems, they do, and they have done the research. 00:23:24:08 - 00:23:45:21 Unknown And so the research is out there, and it's not just from one, you know, of course, somebody is going to say, yes, you know, this is my this is my Amazon review, I've got 4.7 stars. So it's not like that. We don't just trust that, but it's across the industry alone that it's known that that lecture capture improve student student learning. 00:23:46:00 - 00:24:02:05 Unknown So I can feel confident that and I can go with that. You can also look at the adoption of it, though, even though it's going to improve student, learning doesn't mean the faculty member is going to use it. That's I was kind of wondering, like, is there a feedback loop within the university? You know, we we help you implement this. 00:24:02:05 - 00:24:29:14 Unknown Like, did it get adopted? I wouldn't say that there is a formal feedback loop, but we know when something's being used and when it's not, because, you know, I can look at the licensing that I have to do every year for the product. And I can see, you know, I review how many hours it's being used. I know when the price is going to go up because we're using that, you know, like crazy, or it's going to go down because we're not using as much as we expected. 00:24:29:16 - 00:24:51:07 Unknown So I can watch it that way. So it really usually comes from annual licensing that I can see what's happening or not happening. And there are plenty of times where I trim technology in a classroom this year, in fact. Well, I go last year and the year before that. And really, you know, since since the pandemic, students got their own devices. 00:24:51:11 - 00:25:16:13 Unknown You know, we used to have a certain amount of students that had their own devices, a certain percentage, but since we all went home and started teaching and learning from home for a period of time, everybody ended up getting their own device in one form or another. Not everybody I shouldn't say everybody. That's two all inclusive, but the majority, the great majority of people have their own devices. 00:25:16:15 - 00:25:43:02 Unknown I watched one of my learning environments, which we called the Mega Lab, which had 85 computers in it. I watch the usage of that space just dwindle and dwindle and dwindle and dwindle and, you know, I can get stats on computer usage. So our our usage, on average, there were two students at a time logged in in the mega lab with 85 computers. 00:25:43:04 - 00:26:08:04 Unknown But the other thing that I could see, which I couldn't get stats on, but I could see with my own eyes, if you will. So a a qualitative type of, analysis was I have students sitting all over the floors near outside the mega lab with their laptops or in groups, you know, collaborating on something with their own devices. 00:26:08:06 - 00:26:35:17 Unknown They didn't want our devices. They have their own. They just need space. Now. They need space where they can sit and talk. So we end up taking half of the computers out of this, out of this space, changed the furniture to where, you know, 6 or 7 students could sit around a table. We put in chargers and we took out anything that was dividing a student from looking at another student and conversing. 00:26:35:18 - 00:27:02:15 Unknown Where we had dividers. We, created more BYoD spaces. Bring your own device spaces to where student could work by themselves as they wanted to. And they just had, you know, plugs for their chargers and, you know, they could be, alone if you will, or, or segregated, to themselves to do their self-study. And that mega lab became alive again. 00:27:02:17 - 00:27:28:01 Unknown It was just packed between like seven and 8 a.m. and then between 11 and 1 in the afternoon, sort of like those off class times. Place was packed. So it was actually removing technology from the space that improved the learning. That was happening in those spaces and a lot more peer to peer learning, which is really cool to see. 00:27:28:02 - 00:27:47:04 Unknown So there is a time to remove technology to do you tend to feel those things coming. Like you said, you saw students sitting around like, do you tend to see those, how do I really say this? Maybe ten years ago, did you feel like maybe that was going to happen? Like, these labs might be a thing of the past soon enough? 00:27:47:04 - 00:28:18:17 Unknown Yes. So it was prior to then that we started putting in more BYoD furniture around the building, you know, around in our buildings in all kinds of different spaces with charging stations. But I while I saw that growing, I didn't necessarily foresee the, decline of the use of the technology that was there. I only saw that we needed to give them more space to use their own technology. 00:28:18:19 - 00:28:40:13 Unknown You know, we had to add stuff like, print from your own device rather than just having to be relegated to printing from a computer lab. Computer. Now, we, added that service to where you could print to the cloud and go to any place on campus and then print out what you worked on from home or from your own device. 00:28:40:14 - 00:29:08:06 Unknown So, yeah. So we were making some of this change as time went on, but it really came to a head in these last few years to where it was like, okay, these spaces aren’t being used, they're abandoned. We need to make a change. We need to adapt for our students. And that's what we did. And we do the same thing inside the classroom, not just in, you know, the the computer labs, if you will. 00:29:08:08 - 00:29:35:13 Unknown Hey, Joe, before we wrap up, can you provide guidance to our listeners who are thinking about using video? Yeah, video in the classroom? To me, as I said earlier, is pretty much one of the key learning instruments that all of us use, whether it's personal or whether it's academic. So to try to live without it nowadays is you might as well go to an island, you know? 00:29:35:15 - 00:30:04:19 Unknown It's just it's just part of our everyday lifestyles now and including in it's in everything. I would highly suggest, one of the things that we have been moving more and more to is from training documentation to training videos, you know, somebody who doesn't know nobody, especially a faculty member who's trying to get a class started. Nobody wants to be reading a document on how to use the technology in the classroom. 00:30:04:21 - 00:30:23:08 Unknown But if you provide them a 1.5 minute video that they can watch when they know, hey, I'm going to be in building such and such in room, such and such next semester, I at least want to take a quick look at this room, and I can look at it on video. I can see the technology that's in there. 00:30:23:10 - 00:30:43:14 Unknown That's fantastic. And that's video and training videos for the faculty member. So now inside the classroom, it has the same effect on behalf of the faculty member. As long as they can get in there and it's easy to use. First of all, the students are going to love it. They're going to appreciate it. It keeps their attention. It's what they're used to. 00:30:43:19 - 00:31:14:03 Unknown But that that technology needs to have an ease of use. It needs to be able to be used easily and quickly. And if it's not, if it takes away from the faculty members ability to teach rather than be an asset in their portfolio and in their pedagogy, then it's just a lose. It's just lost, you know, it's an investment that is just going to sit there and not be used. 00:31:14:04 - 00:31:43:12 Unknown Great. By the way, you're using video for training is, right up of Andy’s alley he's he does quite a bit of educational videos and maybe you can talk about that for a second Andy, like how useful that has been for users of video systems. I think you're right. You know, if you look at companies like ours or any sort of software company, you could have a 500 page user manual, or you could quickly find the minute and a half video you're looking for. 00:31:43:14 - 00:32:02:05 Unknown People will, you know, search YouTube before they go to your website to find the user manual. So everything you said is kind of been spot on with my experience. Although mine's not in higher education. Yeah, and yet mine mine is higher education. But I don't think it really makes a difference. Like you said, it's just how we learn as human beings nowadays. 00:32:02:05 - 00:32:25:07 Unknown It's one of the main ways that we're going to learn. Not that, anybody in the podcast wants to hear this, but, Andy, if you check out TWU dot edu slash classrooms, you'll see a link that says, yeah, TWU dot edu slash classrooms, you'll see links there where you can actually view the technology in our room and actually look at our training videos. 00:32:25:09 - 00:32:44:02 Unknown So we have a ton of training videos. We're making more every day or every year. Makes a big difference in the adoption of our faculty. And they can walk in there ahead of time and feel confident in the space. Rather than feel like, oh my goodness, I don't know what I'm about to face. So I have a question for you. 00:32:44:04 - 00:33:01:06 Unknown Now, now, kind of like I'm on the tail end of your career. You mentioned, like, what you inherited when you first got into this field, like TVs and VCRs on carts, if you could, like, kind of predict the next maybe like five, ten years, like where this kind of goes, what do you what do you think your successors will what types of problems will they try to be tackling? 00:33:01:07 - 00:33:24:01 Unknown Well, just for clarification, I want to make sure I'm honest here in case my predecessors are watching or listening. Actually they did the TVs and VCRs on carts. I was part of that. Next. That. That's right. You said your generation of taking it from four, 3 to 16 nine, you know, wide screen and from analog to digital. 00:33:24:03 - 00:33:54:20 Unknown But the next hurdle, I think universities have to accomplish as they, as they, try to figure out the cost of higher education just the way, life is nowadays is that we have to find a way to make the in classroom student in the learn from home or distance ed student feel that they're on the same level. 00:33:55:00 - 00:34:18:16 Unknown Classrooms are now a very hybrid atmosphere. Our faculty are teaching not only classroom, students sitting in front of them, but they are teaching students who are online via zoom, via teams, via Google meets whatever Hangouts. There are different means by which we are communicating. They're paying the same dollar, but do they feel like they're getting the same education? 00:34:18:18 - 00:34:48:03 Unknown Do they feel that they're on the same footing? And I think as technologists, we have to find a way to figure out where we equate or bring equality between the student who isn't in the classroom. But rather is learning whenever and wherever they are at that time. You know, it takes a lot of money to keep a building or a campus going. 00:34:48:08 - 00:35:19:17 Unknown And so we need to increase our, our enrollment numbers. If we increase our enrollment numbers, it's not necessarily going to have to are not necessarily going to be because we've increased on campus student population, but we've may have in just brought in more students from outside, of the campus into our classrooms, virtually, remotely through through the use of technology. 00:35:19:19 - 00:35:45:08 Unknown But how does that student remotely and that student in person feel like they're getting the exact same quality education? You know, I think we've all experienced that conference room, too, where you have a dozen people sitting around a conference table and they're having a meeting. But the three people that weren't able to be on site and are connected remotely or on a big screen at the end of the at the end of that table, and that that meeting is happening. 00:35:45:08 - 00:36:11:20 Unknown And everybody who's at that table, you know, in person are having one experience where the people who are remote and connecting to that meeting are seeing the backs of people's heads, are hearing muffled conversations because 12 people are talking at the same time, you know, and that happens with our students too, you know, that are connected remotely. And we need to find a way to bridge that gap. 00:36:11:21 - 00:36:36:17 Unknown Well, Joe, this has been an awesome conversation. I've learned a lot, and I'm sure our listeners have learned a lot as well. Any last comments you'd like to share before we say goodbye? I think the one recommendation that I would have, especially at the end of my career now, and this probably goes for any field, but I know it especially goes for higher education, is if you want to get something done, build relationships. 00:36:37:01 - 00:37:07:17 Unknown You know, a university is multifaceted. As we talked about earlier, it's not just academics. It's not just finance. It's not just I.T. It's not just facilities. It's all of us making this thing happen together. It's also vendors and manufacturers of the products that we use. And for me, it's relationships that make the difference in how productive you can be and how successful that you'll be in your role. 00:37:07:19 - 00:37:23:00 Unknown So, if I would encourage anything, it's good to know the people that you're working with and so that you can together produce the outcomes of that next great, successful leader that we're all invested in. 00:37:24:18 - 00:37:36:19 Unknown On Record is a podcast presented by Intelligent Video Solutions, hosted by Mike Anzalone and Andy Simmons and produced by Kyle Schell said. Find us online at ipivs dot com. Slash on record and on social media at Intelligent Video Solutions.