00:00:00:00 - 00:00:01:18 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:24:03 Unknown Welcome to the On Record podcast the podcast where we talk with professionals and other subject matter experts from diverse markets that are using video and audio in innovative ways to support their organization's objectives. My name is Andy Simmons. My co-host is Mike Anzalone, and today our guest is Stephanie Morris, who's the Child Advocacy Studies or CAST program coordinator at Northwestern Arkansas Community College. 00:00:24:04 - 00:00:48:10 Unknown Stephanie, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me. Why don't we, kind of start with the obvious and just tell us a little bit about yourself and your role at the college. Sure. I am the Child Advocacy Studies program coordinator, which is a program that is designed to teach frontline professionals how and future frontline professionals how to recognize and respond to child maltreatment. 00:00:48:12 - 00:01:12:19 Unknown We are the program is split about 5050 with academic students that are either going to seek an associate's degree or transfer on to another higher ed institution. And then the other half of that are community members who are coming back in for some professional development or additional training related to child maltreatment. And what's your what's your background that kind of brought you here? 00:01:12:21 - 00:01:43:21 Unknown Yeah, I started my career as a deputy prosecuting attorney. I prosecuted in Benton County, Arkansas for about 12 years, where I was primarily handling cases involving crimes of violence or child abuse. And learned nothing about how to respond to child maltreatment when I was in law school. Not a single minute or ounce of academic training on that at all came from on the job and professional development. 00:01:44:01 - 00:02:13:15 Unknown And so when the college was starting this program it really spoke to me, that that we need to do a better job of training people in their academic career, how to respond and identify, even know what child maltreatment is before they go out into the field. And that's what CAST is designed to do, so that you can have an experiential learning process in the classroom instead of learning, on the job with a real family or a real child 00:02:13:17 - 00:02:34:10 Unknown at issue. And I should say we do that through, simulation training. And we have a lot of classroom time. But also, I'm very lucky to work in a training center on our campus. We have a building that can cover pretty much the entire criminal justice system. We have a fully functioning two story house. It's three bedrooms. 00:02:34:10 - 00:02:54:09 Unknown It has a bathroom and a laundry room and a kitchen. All the things that you would find in a home. And we can use that to stage and mimic crime scenes or child abuse scenes. And then we also have a medical room where we can simulate medical, you know, pieces of an investigation. We have a courtroom that is very nice. 00:02:54:09 - 00:03:12:05 Unknown It's the envy of a lot of lawyers who are in our actual community courtrooms. That has all kinds of great technology features in it as well. And we can use that to teach and train our students. So it's not my saying that I've stolen it. And I think it's a great thing that I could I could teach someone in a classroom how to ride a bike. 00:03:12:06 - 00:03:29:19 Unknown We could teach you about physics and balance and braking and all the mechanical parts of riding a bike. But that does not mean you would actually be able to go into the parking lot and actually ride the bike. Through our simulations, we are hoping that our students learn how to ride the bike here before they go out into the world. 00:03:29:20 - 00:04:15:11 Unknown Stephanie, I think many of our listeners may not be familiar with child advocacy centers. Can you explain a little bit more about what happens there and how you use video in that kind of environment? Sure. So in a real world investigation, not just our academic world, the ideal way for a child abuse allegation to be investigated is through a multidisciplinary team, which means that law enforcement, child protective services, attorneys, mental health providers and a forensic interviewer advocates as well are involved in the investigation from the outset together. 00:04:15:11 - 00:04:44:14 Unknown And they're each they're they're moving forward together so that all of the services can be provided to the family at once instead of piecemeal where meeting where the police talk to a family and then the the child protective services talk to a family and an advocate. And instead of doing all of that individually, it comes together. And it comes together typically in the form of a forensic interview or someone who is trained to interview children who have been victims of trauma. 00:04:44:16 - 00:05:13:21 Unknown Does one well-trained interview, and then that information can be passed along and it's passed along through a recording. And so those interview rooms are wired with sound and video, so that the child only has to make that statement one time. So we here, as part of the college are trying to mimic that multidisciplinary team approach to an investigation. 00:05:13:21 - 00:05:57:14 Unknown So we're teaching my students are social workers. They're going to be law enforcement officers, they're going to be advocates, they're going to be teachers and nurses. And we're trying to teach anyone who might be involved in responding to a child who's been abused, how to work together. And the technology that we use to do that is this really fantastic video recordings system where we not only can mimic what the forensic interview is like, we're doing forensic interview training where people are learning to do those interviews, but we also can then step, pull back from that and video people as they learn and as they practice those skills so that they can use 00:05:57:14 - 00:06:27:20 Unknown that recording as a way to develop their skills. Very interesting. You have experience and it sounds like this, the house environment that you've set up is really unique. When you've set that up from, again, from a video perspective, what challenges did you have and how did you overcome some of those challenges? Sure. So our house is set up in an old, medical building, that was adjacent to the college. 00:06:27:20 - 00:06:48:10 Unknown And when that facility moved, the college jumped at the opportunity to absorb a building that's right next to campus. So it's a little bit funky. It is set up with, a very, you know, set of very steep stairs, that then take a, you know, hard right to some bedrooms. So it's not, it's, it's while functions like a regular house. 00:06:48:10 - 00:07:13:17 Unknown It's laid out a little different than a regular house might be. And I have found through the years that just the action doesn't that I really want to capture for teaching purposes doesn't always happen in the the bedroom itself or in the living room itself. It happens in these sidebar areas where the students gather together and they're brainstorming and strategizing. 00:07:13:19 - 00:07:43:00 Unknown And so we had to make sure that we were encompassing those hallways, and that the space is just adjacent to the room, that they were also mic’d and able to capture the video, because that's where they're a lot of times the real learning actually happens. And that came from some trial and error. When we first put the cameras in, we were we focused in right on the bed or on the couch or on the, you know, I right at the kitchen counter, and found that that was not actually getting all of the important details. 00:07:43:01 - 00:08:05:15 Unknown Okay. Would you mind telling us a little bit more about that? Like was interested in those sidebar conversation. So you met two students maybe in the hallway, like an example of a time where, like, yeah, a light bulb moment where two students were talking to one another one maybe later. Sure. So we, in our various classes, have scenarios set up where students are, it's real to them. 00:08:05:15 - 00:08:30:19 Unknown It feels very real. We even staged the house to to look like a real crime scene. We have fake bugs. We have, we have candles that are that are. There's a place called the Stinky Candle Company that makes candles that smell like, B.O. or urine or, marijuana or just about anything. There's one that smells like the zoo. 00:08:30:21 - 00:08:52:00 Unknown And so we, we try to make it a very authentic experience so that even when they walk in, the smells are hitting them. And it is, you know, we're teaching them to knock on the door. They've got to convince and they're actors playing, and we have volunteers who come in, convince these people to let them in the house. 00:08:52:02 - 00:09:14:17 Unknown Or tell them that they're coming in whether they want them to or not, but still try to do that in a way that is, trauma informed and doesn't destroy trust in relationships, because you're going to have to have continued conversations with these families. So we need them to preserve those relationships, but also do an investigation. So they're going to knock on the door. 00:09:14:17 - 00:09:44:16 Unknown They're going to have to to walk into this environment that might be the most chaotic, smelly, quite frankly, gross environment that they've ever been in and solve problems for this family. And so the sidebar conversations are very often, oh my gosh, it's so gross in here. Or can you believe the smell? Or they might even gag sometimes or have these, strong reactions for good reason, because it's a tough place. 00:09:44:18 - 00:10:07:09 Unknown And then, you know, they don't even realize they've done it. A lot of times they don't know that they've made a snide comment or that they have made a terrible face on video. When we do the playback, they catch that and they understand that if if the video picked up that they said, this place is disgusting, that the family members might have also heard a comment about that. 00:10:07:11 - 00:10:25:10 Unknown And if you've just said that someone's place is disgusting, then forming a relationship with them such that it's going to help them fix that place for the sake of that child, it's going to be really difficult. And so we're helping them learn how to put their game face on, and that you can have those reactions, but you can't show them. 00:10:25:12 - 00:10:43:14 Unknown And if I tell a student that you said this place is disgusting or you made you made an ugly face about it, they don't necessarily believe me. You know, they think, oh, I didn't say that or they didn't hear it. But when we can put them, let them see it for themselves in a video playback, they won't do it again. 00:10:43:14 - 00:11:09:01 Unknown You know, they they've learned that lesson here in a place where it's safe to learn that lesson instead of with a real family. That sounds like a pretty emotional experience for like maybe younger students, or this is like a first experience for them. How do you kind of support them through that? Yeah. So we start each semester, with a class period where we talk about, how are you going to take care of yourself? 00:11:09:03 - 00:11:25:12 Unknown Because I think, you know, one of the biggest problems in this field is burnout, where people, they, they sign up to be a social work student, and I'm going to be a social worker, and they think, you know, they're going to change the world and then get out there and realize it's a lot harder than they ever imagined. 00:11:25:14 - 00:11:47:04 Unknown So we want from the very beginning them to have outlets, you know, how what is your self-care plan? And so we start that very early. One of the other things we do, and we have a wellness counseling and wellness center on campus, and they come to our class the first week of class to make sure students are aware of those resources, that they're entitled to free sessions. 00:11:47:10 - 00:12:06:02 Unknown Many of our students will take advantage of that. So we have them create plans before we really get into the semester. To make sure I don't I don't want them to, they may need to be up all night studying. Right, but not up all night worrying, or going, you know, juggling with their feelings. 00:12:06:03 - 00:12:30:18 Unknown And I also don't want a candy coat, sugar coat, things I want them to know what they're getting into when they sign up to be a law enforcement officer, or be a social worker who's going to be in some really tough situations. And if it's not for them, then better they find out now. Then after they get a master's degree and feel like it's too late to adjust or change careers. 00:12:30:20 - 00:12:58:18 Unknown Stephanie, what are the interesting things you you pointed out with? Again, with the smells in the room and the environment? And because this is a simulation, what kind of like scenario, like simulation scenarios have you created and how have you found like students respond to those different types of scenarios? We have a scenario for just about anything you can imagine. 00:12:58:19 - 00:13:27:20 Unknown I have we've we've tried to as a program, embrace AI and have, have used that to write some fun scenarios and, and tweak real fact patterns. But I like to take real cases from our community whenever I can. So that I can say, this is not this is this is something that happened last week here in the city where you live, so that they understand these are these are not abstract things we've created. 00:13:28:00 - 00:13:52:07 Unknown But but real scenarios. But well, I will what I will do is use AI to sanitize sometimes the, the details that would identify someone. If we want to respect the privacy of people who are our real victims in our community. But we we anything from, sexual abuse, physical abuse, neglect, all of the above. 00:13:52:09 - 00:14:21:02 Unknown One of my favorite things to do is to have students or the professionals that we work with think that they're responding to one type of case. And then when they get into the house, it ends up being something actually very different. For example, we did a training with our local emergency responder. So all the firemen, all the paramedics, the emergency responders came for what they thought was a cardiac arrest. 00:14:21:05 - 00:14:58:09 Unknown So the call goes over their radio as a cardiac arrest. They show up to our building. They know it's a training. Right? So it's, But they think they're showing up for a cardiac arrest call when they get into the house. There is substantial evidence of of child maltreatment. And so it is a test to see. What do they come in with blinders that they're responding so focused on their cardiac arrest that they don't look up and realize that there are some other things that are happening in that house that need attention, immediate attention as mandated reporters, you know, when we do it, sometimes they pick it up and sometimes they don't. 00:14:58:09 - 00:15:20:11 Unknown And the ones that don't, they they won't ever miss it again after they realize they've missed it in a training. These are people who are in their helpers. They signed up to be a helper. And it's really devastating to them to learn that they missed an important piece of a child abuse or child maltreatment because they had a blinder on, and so, so, yeah. 00:15:20:11 - 00:15:45:17 Unknown So our own, our firemen came through, it opened up additional training points that were needed. For example, one of the, we had our video recording on one of the firemen who came in is your stereotypical fireman who has just big, he's as big as the doorway. He’s who you want responding right. If your house is on fire, you want this guy there? 00:15:45:19 - 00:16:07:04 Unknown Because he is obviously well equipped to handle anything. We had an actor playing a child in in a bedroom, and the fireman was going through clearing the house. And when he got to the doorway and saw this actor who was playing a child, he stopped and he stood in the doorway and started asking the child questions. He is a nice guy. 00:16:07:05 - 00:16:29:16 Unknown He he he thinks he is being child friendly and supportive and kind to this child. Our actor who was was playing the role after the scenario was over, came out and told me I knew this was was fake. I know this was the scenario, and I knew who he was and that he's a nice guy. But I was terrified. 00:16:29:18 - 00:16:57:07 Unknown This is an adult actor just by his demeanor and his posture, as he stood in that doorway. And so I, we pulled the video and after the scenario was over, I pulled him aside and said, I want you to watch yourself and tell me, you know, how you how you think you did. And I played maybe ten seconds of the video of him standing in that doorway and his face just fell and he said, oh my gosh, that that's really scary, isn't it? 00:16:57:07 - 00:17:20:02 Unknown And I said, yes. So, so then I set him up to go talk to the actor, who was able to give him some direct feedback about what it felt like to be trapped in the room, what felt like being trapped in the room by this bear of a man who was standing in the doorway. And I don't think that's something that we would have ever picked up on, or he would have really, accepted as a critique if he couldn't see it for himself. 00:17:20:02 - 00:17:39:12 Unknown But when he got to see himself, how imposing he looked on video, I think it will. I know it has changed the way he responds to children. When he sees kids in home, he has to think more about his imposing presence and work a little bit harder to be child friendly than someone else might have to. So what? 00:17:39:12 - 00:17:53:02 Unknown What to? I mean, this is kind of outside the scope of of video recording, but I'm interested in what he would do. That's his physical appearance. Like, I want to think about my own children you get down on their level. Maybe not in the doorway. Is that the kind of things that. Yeah, yeah. So what I talked through with him, yes. 00:17:53:02 - 00:18:12:07 Unknown Was to squat down to, you know, to, get more on their level to maybe, you know, stand outside the doorway, stand back more in the hall where he can see him and talk to them. But you're not blocking the door. Or if it's comfortable, step into the room. And don't stand between the child and the door. 00:18:12:09 - 00:18:31:04 Unknown You know, law enforcement officers and firemen are trained that you don't ever put yourself where you can't escape or get to a safe place. But with a child, it's a little bit different that training. And if it was, if it was an adult, you don't want to have them between you and the door because you may not have a safe way to exit. 00:18:31:06 - 00:18:47:14 Unknown But with a child it's a different. And so he had to think through. It's not the same kind of training he probably could have stepped on into the room, stepped away from the door so the child felt like they weren't trapped. So when you when you find things like that in recording, when you're reviewing recording, you find these things do the people in there. 00:18:47:14 - 00:19:14:17 Unknown Ever get a second chance like, okay, you know, I'm going to reschedule this training for a few weeks down the road. I'm gonna try it again. Yes, absolutely. We can do redos. In fact, with the fire department, we we did, the next year, we, you know, we let a year ago by we did a follow up training with them, and it was it was very fun to watch those who had been in the house before and had had, they knew something was up and they knew how to respond differently. 00:19:14:17 - 00:19:36:09 Unknown And it was really rewarding to to see that, to see, you know, that that they were saying, oh, they're watching us and they know and I've got to do better. And you can see that training took hold. Stephanie, you when we started the conversation, you also mentioned you're using video in a courtroom environment. Can you tell us a little bit about that? 00:19:36:11 - 00:19:58:03 Unknown Sure. So we we have this fully functioning courtroom. It's got a jury box. It's got a bench for the judge. And we can use that in a lot of different ways. We do it sometimes as follow up training. So for the firemen or for even for my students who have been through a simulation in the house, we will very often follow that with a testifying session. 00:19:58:05 - 00:20:18:18 Unknown And so they will then we'll we'll simulate that. It doesn't it's not enough to just make an arrest or to to to complete an investigation. You're going to have to go to court and we will take them into the courtroom and they will testify under direct and cross-examination about their role in the investigation. And so we can video that as well. 00:20:18:18 - 00:20:36:20 Unknown And, and that when you I don't know if either of you have ever found yourselves testifying before, but it's a very nerve wracking process. And often people will tell you when they come off of that witness stand, they have no idea what they said or what questions they answered, because your senses just are overwhelmed. They just kind of black out for a minute while answering them. 00:20:37:00 - 00:21:03:04 Unknown Yeah, because it is so stressful. And so when we, we will record for them. And I think it is, it's hard to be be self-aware and critique yourself when you're in that stressful moment of being cross-examined. But when you can watch it back on video, they pick up on things that maybe they shouldn't do, or maybe things they did well and try to improve that process for them as well. 00:21:03:06 - 00:21:27:06 Unknown We also make it available to our local victim advocates, and or the prosecutor's office, if they've got witnesses who maybe are feeling very overwhelmed or reluctant about coming to court, then it's a good, safe space for them to come and and see what a courtroom is like, get the feel for what it feels like to speak into a microphone. 00:21:27:08 - 00:21:51:19 Unknown Most people have never spoken into a microphone. And so we can help them, with that process without having to go into an actual courtroom. What else are you looking for in video review of the courtroom? It is a great way to review someone's style and substance, but more of a style of critique. And so we all have mannerisms or things that we do that we're sort of aware of. 00:21:51:19 - 00:22:13:05 Unknown But until you actually see yourself doing it, you're unaware. For I went through that training myself when I was a prosecutor where they videotaped me. And I did not realize that when I am doing a cross-examination, I have a really bad habit of standing like a flamingo, where I will tuck one leg up in my knee. 00:22:13:10 - 00:22:32:17 Unknown And I was totally unaware that I. That I did that. And it was a bit of a tell that I was getting, you know, worked up that I would tuck that leg up like a flamingo. And no one had ever told me I did it. But I was watching myself on a video recording and went, why did no one tell me I did that? 00:22:33:01 - 00:22:55:15 Unknown And so now I'm very aware. Does it mean I don't do it? But I am at least aware that it's happening and can correct that. And so we'll have people who rock in their chairs, or maybe they cross their arms, or even just that when you get nervous, your face gets really red and they're unaware of that. That part of, you know, the nonverbals or the their style. 00:22:55:16 - 00:23:20:17 Unknown And when you watch yourself being, you know, in a playback, you can correct those things. Were you able to help design that with your background, or did you come into the program and it already existed? A little bit of both. It was it was existing as I got here, but it needed some tweaks. And so I've been able to, you know, during the pandemic, our building was we weren't using it much because the campus was closed. 00:23:20:17 - 00:23:42:03 Unknown We went to virtual classes. And so during that window of time, I was able to to come in and say, you know, can we maybe tweak and adjust and make some changes? And thankfully, the college was able to do that. Stephanie, we've had the privilege of working with a few CAC centers, and they're set up with like, interview rooms. 00:23:42:08 - 00:24:15:13 Unknown And a lot of the rooms are developed for I've seen, like from very small children to teenagers and everything in between and sometimes in the design of those rooms. There's at the mindset of we want cameras, but they can't be obtrusive. We maybe they should be hidden. Same with the the microphone, because it's just those individuals being interviewed again could be self-conscious of being recorded. 00:24:15:15 - 00:24:36:16 Unknown How in your environment, how do you handle some of those types of issues. So we do we have four interview rooms that are set up to be forensic interviews, much like a children's advocacy center. One of the things that that we teach in and train people is that we want to be up front, that they're being recorded. 00:24:36:16 - 00:24:54:06 Unknown These victims of trauma have been through enough that we don't want to do anything to damage the trust or the relationship that we're here to help them. And so, especially with older kids, we usually just tell them, you know, hear this, that we are recording it. Here's why we're recording it and here's who gets to see it. 00:24:54:06 - 00:25:13:08 Unknown It's doesn't go on YouTube. It doesn't, you know, become public. It it's only for the people that need it. Here's the here's the camera. You'll see it. And then there's a microphone by the camera. And we pointed out and make it very plain with younger children, we don't necessarily call it out unless they ask, but if they say, what's that thing up there? 00:25:13:08 - 00:25:37:17 Unknown Then we tell them, because we always want to be honest and trustworthy in our interactions with them. Most of the time, the children and even the teens say, okay. And they're they're unfazed by the recording. It's just part of the process. Occasionally in real life, there will be a teen who doesn't want to be recorded. And and that's something that that multidisciplinary team that I referenced. 00:25:37:18 - 00:25:58:01 Unknown We'll have to talk through what, you know, what is best for that scenario. But our rooms are set up very similar. They're very minimal distractions. There's a sofa and a chair and an easel with some paper and the supplies that you need, like anatomically correct dolls, for example, supplies that might be needed for a forensic interview. 00:25:58:03 - 00:26:24:05 Unknown Well, Stephanie, it sounds like your program is really offering the community such a valuable service to what you do. Before we wrap up, is is there anything else that you'd like to share with our listeners in terms of your specific program, or maybe others who are thinking about setting up similar programs, things that they should think about in terms of putting a program together like yours? 00:26:24:08 - 00:26:53:00 Unknown Sure. So Zero Abuse Project is the. And Victor Veith, that is the the parent of child advocacy studies. This is part of his mission to well, he's written an article called end of the Third Generation with the idea that with proper training and resources, we we can end child maltreatment. You know, there are always going to be, outliers. 00:26:53:00 - 00:27:27:04 Unknown But most child maltreatment is related to, a cycle of poverty, of neglect. We parent the way we were parented, and with some proper interventions we can bring an end to that. Part of that vision is that we we do need to train our, our frontline workers as part of the academic process. You know, I mentioned that I received in law school not one minute of how to put a child on the witness stand or help a child through the court process. 00:27:27:06 - 00:27:51:16 Unknown I'd been a prosecutor about six months before I was handed my first child rape case, with a nine year old, victim. At that point, I was not a parent. I'd done some babysitting as a teenager, but that was the extent of my interaction or knowledge of how to work with children. And I so I set about getting her ready for court. 00:27:51:18 - 00:28:16:08 Unknown What I was actually doing was getting myself ready for court. And I, I further victimized that child. And we got a life sentence on that. On paper, that case looks like it was a huge success. But I know now with the training that I've had after law school, that that it wasn't a success. That that win came at largely at her expense. 00:28:16:10 - 00:28:43:03 Unknown The more higher ed institutions that we can get to adopt CAST and it doesn't have to be its own standalone program. It's great when that happens. But even just adopting a couple of courses so that people are learning in a classroom, and maybe through simulations like we have here how to recognize and respond to child abuse instead of learning on the job. 00:28:43:04 - 00:29:05:20 Unknown The more we can do that, the better we will be able to serve children and families. And so I would love my dream, right? Is that all higher ed institutions have some, for people who are going to be mandated reporters or frontline workers that they have some training and exposure to how to respond to children and families who have been victims of trauma. 00:29:05:21 - 00:29:24:02 Unknown So if somebody wanted to reach out to you regarding their program or anything that they heard on here or starting a program, what would be the best way for them to do that? Probably the best way is to send me an email. The email addresses smorris6, the number six at nwacc, n w a c c dot Edu. All right. 00:29:24:02 - 00:29:41:00 Unknown Well thank you Stephanie. This has been a very awesome conversation. And once again, I can't say enough of the the important work that you're doing for the community. So thank you. Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun. And thanks for chatting with me. Okay. Take care. 00:29:41:00 - 00:29:42:18 00:29:42:18 - 00:29:54:19 Unknown On Record is a podcast presented by Intelligent Video Solutions, hosted by Mike Anzalone and Andy Simmons and produced by Kyle Schell said. Find us online at ipivs dot com. Slash on record and on social media at Intelligent Video Solutions. 00:29:54:19 - 00:29:55:19 00:29:55:19 - 00:30:11:08