00:00:01:19 - 00:00:26:16 Unknown Welcome to the On Record podcast. This is a podcast where we speak with subject matter experts in a variety of industries where they are using and designing video and audio systems to support their organization's objectives. We are live at the image conference here in San Antonio. My name is Mike Anzalone and my co-host is Carmen. Hey, Mike. Carmen. 00:00:26:18 - 00:00:53:15 Unknown Today our guest is Ed Duke. Dean, also known as Duke. Duke is with NV five. And, Duke. Before we kind of get started with the conversation, tell us a little bit about yourself. I'm with M5 Technology and Acoustics. We'll get a little closer. And, I'm senior, AV designer, specializing in medical simulation. I've been with the company 25 years. 00:00:53:17 - 00:01:20:13 Unknown I've been doing medical, simulation for 24 of those 25. So I've been doing this pretty long time. Can you tell us a little bit about the types of projects that you, that you've worked on and that you do work on? Worked in the past? Somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 to 120 different simulation centers. Dealing with medical schools, nursing schools, health education schools. 00:01:20:15 - 00:01:48:02 Unknown Interprofessional. Also dealing with, community outreach and stuff like that. So when a client comes to you, what is it that they're really looking to gain from the services that you can provide? Well, typically our initial client is an architect. So the architects look to team with us for the total technology package. So, NV5 does more than just AV. 00:01:48:02 - 00:02:14:08 Unknown We do data, we do security, surveillance, stuff like that. Also the acoustics, as part of that and, and, writing. So what they're looking at is they'll look at partnering with us or bringing us onto the team for doing that part of it, but also interfacing with the electrical engineers and the mechanical engineers to make sure electrical is in the right place. 00:02:14:10 - 00:02:36:15 Unknown All the conduit and boxes are in the right places. Also making sure that there's enough cooling in the, in like the, the AV rack rooms and things like that. And we can help calculate all that. From my side of it. Then we get involved with what the content, what the program is that they're going to do on that project. 00:02:36:16 - 00:03:08:14 Unknown And if it includes med sim, that's usually where I'm brought in, to talk and bring that through. And I'll help does help design the spaces with the architect and the and the owner. And then from there, we move many times into designing the actual systems that go into the spaces. So that's when, early on, we'll get a, a feel for who they have been using and if they haven't been using anybody. 00:03:08:16 - 00:03:37:06 Unknown We are agnostic to some degree. So we'll bring you to the table. We're bringing, you know, the other, manufacturers and players to the table to do demos and stuff and let them choose the interface and the and then the guy that, works well with their pedagogy. And then from there, like with an, a project where we have you guys on board, I'll work with you for building AV systems. 00:03:37:08 - 00:03:59:02 Unknown Out to do what they want to accomplish with your system as the core. And if it turns out that they don't need all the extra bells and whistles and things like that, if it's a turnkey thing, and that can also happen that way as well. But we help offer the full breadth of AV that can go into, a simulation space. 00:03:59:07 - 00:04:22:15 Unknown We're teaching space. 25 years is super impressive for your background and experience. In those 25 years, there is going to be a trends and things that change. What's an example of something you've seen specific to your role within a medical simulation, specification that that you would want to call out as something that's new and, on the rise, you've seen more of new on new and on the rise. 00:04:22:16 - 00:04:56:05 Unknown Well, there's the big buzzword AI and how that integrates with simulation and how that can help, facilitators and, and instructors manage all the different data that they have to collect from the students. And doing the testing and everything, and help them bring up the salient points that they can react with the student and do the debrief sessions and bring them up to speed where they may be lacking, or be able to call accolades to where they've excelled with words. 00:04:56:07 - 00:05:47:12 Unknown Another big one is, VR, I should say XR VR AR all the all the above mixed media and then the ability to integrate that with what they're doing as far as, with mannequins or with standardized patients or a blend. Seeing some of the early on indications that you may be able to overlay VR, AR into an actual high fidelity room and map out everything in that room so that the students can see that in the goggles and then move on from there, as as well as being able to capture that not only in the VR world, but to also see capture video wise of the VR, and as well 00:05:47:12 - 00:06:13:06 Unknown as the students in the room, as well as the audio. And there's so many new technology solutions that you can implement that it's good that there is easy to use solutions out there too, that are scalable and stable. Sure. And Duke out of the, you know, hundreds of projects that you worked on. When a client comes to you, what are the what do they bring to the table that is going to lead to their success and success? 00:06:13:07 - 00:06:37:01 Unknown Working with with a firm like yourself? It's kind of a I think that some of the architects have taken in, I call it tell me a day in the life we've, what do you do and what do you want to accomplish in those activities? And what is the outcome? What do you want to be able to come out of that with how you're going to approach the student? 00:06:37:01 - 00:07:00:18 Unknown How are you going to teach and how you how you move forward? And then it's my job to help apply the technology. We try to steer them away from, you know, the, the old buzzwords, but we want 4K camera. We want we want this kind of. No, no, don't tell me cameras. I'll work with you. With the number of cameras and the number of angles that we typically, recommend. 00:07:00:20 - 00:07:21:01 Unknown It may be more. It may be less, depending on what the activities are. But the big thing is saying, tell me what you want to accomplish. What's what's what do you want to get out of this? And and then I'll work with them on the, on the technology and how to capture that and make that become a reality for them. 00:07:21:03 - 00:07:47:03 Unknown On the flip side, whether what are some of the challenges that clients of, have given you that you've had to overcome? Big one. Data networks. Data networks tell us about that. Being able to talk to the I.T folks and explain to them what's going on. And, a lot of what's happening now in the AP world is what we call heavy over IP. 00:07:47:05 - 00:08:24:06 Unknown It's, heavy endpoints that ride on a network, not necessarily their network, but on a network. That in the old days, it used to be a chassis. And you had cards for each endpoint. Now it's a network switch and you put endpoints out there. So that networks, which has become that chassis, explaining to them that that AV over IP is different than the med sim capture because most of like your equipment will ride on their network so that it's accessible by the students, accessible by the faculty. 00:08:24:08 - 00:08:53:06 Unknown It's accessible by the administrators, and it gives them a lot of control of that with a view over IP. The payload for each of those endpoints is enormous. And if it's not handled very carefully and even on a dedicated network, it can bring a school's network right to its knees. It's interesting. So that's the biggest thing is, is getting them to understand the difference between the 80 over IP, which they oh, it's cameras on a network. 00:08:53:06 - 00:09:29:06 Unknown That's the over IP now. Not quite meds. Medical simulation capture is usually a compressed format where Avi over IP is uncompressed or minimally compressed. So where your cameras might pull 100 megabits. Each one of these endpoints is a gigabit. Wow. So you get 160 endpoints on a network that's 160 gigabits of information flying around. That could drop a network to its knees. 00:09:29:06 - 00:10:01:08 Unknown If it's not specifically dedicated to that, that purpose and I know some of the projects that you've involved us on our projects that, you know, new construction and renovation projects where your client is looking out five, six plus years. So when you're working with them and you're designing a system, how do you what's your thought process in terms of future proofing that design that you're putting together? 00:10:01:10 - 00:10:24:09 Unknown Especially since when we started working with the architects. There's not even lines on paper yet. They're developing the program. So you go through that whole process of figuring out what the building envelope is, then what rooms are, and the spaces that they need to allocate to each of the, the things that the, the, the, college or the client wants to do. 00:10:24:11 - 00:11:03:11 Unknown And then you work on actually designing the building and getting that put together. And then it's the systems. By the time we start a project and you get to the point where we're installing systems, could be two years, could be more years. So a lot of times what we do is we'll put in placeholders. And one of the big things that we like to do is do what we call delayed on the systems, so that we'll take current technology, knowing that in the future that technology will be better for usually the same price, if not a little cheaper. 00:11:03:13 - 00:11:34:03 Unknown So we'll design our budgets around current technology and then move forward as we're getting to that. And then we do what we call a delayed systems package where the building is under construction. It's going to take a year year and a half. Then we start doing systems. So we bring in you with your latest and greatest. And we're not trying to figure out what change orders need to be because now okay, we don't use that camera anymore. 00:11:34:03 - 00:12:01:12 Unknown We use this camera or this software is has no longer this version. It's this version. And then that becomes that creates change orders. We try to go as late as possible so that when that system is installed comes online, they've got as close to the the latest and greatest as possible. So it minimizes that. So when you're designing these systems and they're going to be years out. 00:12:01:13 - 00:12:25:06 Unknown You obviously working with the client. They have to have some sort of budget in mind funding like how as time goes on with these like long term projects. How is that impacting the project and how does it impact like the design of the project? It absolutely does. A lot of times they'll come to us with a budget mind, and it's our job to design to that budget. 00:12:25:07 - 00:12:58:14 Unknown If we feel that budget isn't quite where it should be based on what they want to accomplish, then we'll work with them and we do what we call a high level opinion of probable cost. Early on in the project. Again, based on current technology, but applying all the technologies that we feel need to be part of to accomplish their functionality, and then we'll work with that budget and then say, okay, this is what you need to do to do this. 00:12:58:16 - 00:13:29:15 Unknown Is this a good price? Then we can work on their on on working on v o value engineering b e. To pull that price down if it's necessary. It may involve reducing some of the functionality that they originally wanted. Because to accomplish that there's a cost involved for that technology. How would you how would you recommend a program's stakeholders or faculty get involved to share what they're looking for? 00:13:29:17 - 00:13:50:12 Unknown Maybe a particular software they want to use. What is your advice? To get a unified message out to a team like yours who's helping specify many different things and connect all of the dots at all the spokes of a wheel, if you will. What is your advice for a team that might have, voices that aren't heard of the the roundtable? 00:13:50:14 - 00:14:16:11 Unknown Make sure early on that they talk to the architect that's involved because we just like I said, we're usually under contract with the architect. Have the architect say we want the ndVi folks their presence so they can hear what's going on firsthand. And that bring the appropriate players, the not necessarily the stakeholders, but the users at the end of it. 00:14:16:13 - 00:14:45:05 Unknown There's a lot of times the stakeholders are the beans, the faculty people, the the facility people, I should say. And sometimes the faculty and the end users don't get into that conversation. Bring everybody to the table, including the it guys, the appropriate IT guys that can hear what we're talking about and make the decisions on how they're going to approach things. 00:14:45:06 - 00:15:36:06 Unknown And then we can work on stages from there, refining that and and going down and creating a final product. So Duke, here we are at the iMessage conference, the world's largest simulation conference. What is it that you why are you attending and what is it that you hope to gain from the conference? One of the things I'm talking to I've been talking about with folks recently is, and getting other folks, other designers involved in medical simulation, design and any of our designers could design the AV systems that are involved with what goes behind all of this. 00:15:36:07 - 00:16:23:15 Unknown They can also talk to you folks and know how to talk to you about what's there's going. The trick is going here and hearing what all the medical technology is, the technology that we don't typically, as AV people interface with. And knowing how to, number one, talk to them about how their product needs to interface with a capture system, but also learning all the technology and all the the jargon that goes along with medical, so that we can talk to the doctors, we can talk to the nurses and be able to understand what it is they're talking about, so we can turn it into technology. 00:16:23:17 - 00:16:51:03 Unknown Gotcha. That's the biggest reason I've been coming here now for 10 or 12 years. And that's the biggest thing, is talking to you. Like you folks understanding what's new coming down the pike for computer systems, but then also seeing what's new with VR, what's new with AI, what's new with AR? What's new with mannequins? How are mannequins, going forward? 00:16:51:04 - 00:17:21:18 Unknown Ancillary things like, anatomy, virtual anatomy, things like that, where, you know, there's still great validity in having a cadaver, but early on, maybe the cost of that cadaver, keeping that cadaver in the vault and all that kind of stuff could be mitigated by having virtual patient or virtual cadavers up until they may be their junior year. 00:17:21:20 - 00:17:46:11 Unknown Then they're working with a real cadaver, with with simulation, it's sometimes along the same, same points, maybe starting out with VR, whether it's goggles or on a screen, and then moving into working with the mannequins where you may not need as many mannequins. At the start off of a program, but you want to grow and learning that. 00:17:46:13 - 00:18:14:21 Unknown Also learning, how to deal with standardized patients. You're using a virtual patient, but now, okay, now you've got a little bit going, you know, some of the questions to ask, but, honestly, some of the VR is a little, little young yet, right? Right. To have a live patient, a live actor that now you're interacting with that actor that changes the dynamic a little bit. 00:18:15:01 - 00:19:00:06 Unknown And some of the capture in that situation is not so much just capturing the student diagnosing and things. But what's the look on that student's face? What kind of pressure are they starting to show because they're talking to a real person? Some of that in the VR world doesn't show up. So that's why, you know, even in some of the VR scenarios, I've opted to, you know, suggest that we put cameras in there because now you can see body posture, you can see body language that even though the the goggles aren't capturing that, now, you see body language that the students exhibiting while they're interacting. 00:19:00:08 - 00:19:33:19 Unknown So you can start to see, are they under pressure? Is this something that's could be a pain point for them that they need to work on? Professionally, not just technically, right. The power of AV. That's right. So before we wrap up. Another question I have for you is, you know, as you're learning the, the, the technology, what I kind of refer to as like an ecosystem of technology in simulation. 00:19:33:21 - 00:20:02:16 Unknown How is that over the years that you've attended the conference? How is that technology impacted how you go about thinking about a design, for example? Or I'm looking at, a room, how many cameras, what's the audio system again? But how has this technology impacted that technology that you are designing? Honestly, it's it's it's not so much the technology that has impacted it. 00:20:02:17 - 00:20:35:12 Unknown It's watching the end users and getting feedback from them on what are their pain points and how we can use your technology and additional AV to alleviate those pain points. So as your technology has improved, we've been able to add the same time AV technology has improved. So we marry that together and start to really approach what solving those pain points. 00:20:35:13 - 00:21:03:12 Unknown And early on, I mean, my first 124 years ago was VHS machines. Yeah. Oh, what? I'm just going to. And let me is starting to having AV control systems starting and stopping VHS machines. And I did two projects like that. And I said, there's got to be a better way. And that's when I found one of the companies that does it. 00:21:03:14 - 00:21:39:07 Unknown I'm just kidding. You know, that that did everything, on a server. And I thought, you know, that's. And then that's when I watched all that explode. And it was initially maybe two streams. Now there's, you know, some have four streams. There's even one now that can capture and view nine streams at one time. So that has in some ways reduced the amount of AV that's needed, because now I don't need the pre switch cameras, but in the network world you can't pre switch cameras anyhow. 00:21:39:09 - 00:22:04:05 Unknown So the only pre switching that we do would be for a high resolution input like an HDMI. Where if you have four streams three of those are definitely cameras. No way around that. You're going to you're going to do that. The fourth screen is that high resolution capture. And normally that's attached to patient vitals right. Or electronic medical records. 00:22:04:05 - 00:22:28:12 Unknown So you can see the person entering the electronic medical records. But now okay I've got patient vitals and electronic medical records. And I may have a sonography machine come in. Yep. Now we've got ultrasound. We got to pick that up. How do you get that into a system that may be limited by four screens? We pre switch that to the HDMI input. 00:22:28:13 - 00:22:53:19 Unknown The evolution of technology ends up producing points of failure. And it's all a win in the end, with the end user, being strategic with their budget and being strategic with how you get to the ultimate outcome, which is the success of that team. Just great. It's great to hear that shared objectives. Yeah, definitely. So, Duke, before we wrap up, what would you like to share with our listeners? 00:22:53:21 - 00:23:21:04 Unknown Get get your technology folks involved early and make it MP5? Well, that's part of it. How are they reach you if that's right, get you directly. It's an b5.com and B5 technology and acoustics. So that is our division. And B5 is a huge company. They do all kinds of testing and all that stuff all across and building infrastructure. 00:23:21:06 - 00:23:46:05 Unknown But our division is technology and acoustics. And if anybody is familiar from the old days, that is the old Sextan group. So that is us in NV5 world. And that's what we do. Great. Well we've been speaking with Duke from NV five. Thanks Duke for your time. This has been a really great conversation. Enjoy the rest of the conference. 00:23:46:07 - 00:23:55:02 Unknown Thanks. You too. And hope to see you soon. Absolutely. All right. Take care. Thank you. 00:23:55:04 - 00:24:07:01 Unknown On Record is a podcast presented by Intelligent Video Solutions, hosted by Mike Anzalone and Andy Simmons and produced by Kyle Shelstad. Find us online at ipivs.com/onrecord and on social media at Intelligent Video Solutions.