00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:01 Unknown Welcome to the On Record Podcast a podcast, where we talk with professionals and other various subject matter experts from diverse markets that are using video and audio in innovative ways to support their organization's objectives. My name is Andy Simmons and my co-host is Mike Anzalone. And today our guest is Danny Opperman, who's the, the director of clinical simulation education at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine. 00:00:23:02 - 00:00:41:11 Unknown Danny, how are you doing today? Great, great. Thank you so much for for inviting me today. Thanks for joining us. Appreciate it. Why don't you take just a couple of minutes to introduce yourself, kind of, maybe a little bit about your background and how we got here today. Sure. I've been, my background started in the Air Force, where I became a medic. 00:00:41:13 - 00:01:00:11 Unknown And, I transitioned to civilian EMS, where I've been involved in EMS in various capacities for over about 20 years. Management education provider. Things of that nature. So, and then I in my educational process, I got involved in simulation. 00:01:00:11 - 00:01:22:13 Unknown And I've been with it ever since. And, little did I know at that time that simulation would be a passion of mine. And. And here I am, where I've transitioned from paramedic simulation to medical school, nursing school simulation. So, it really simulation is is a serious passion of mine. I like to write about it. 00:01:22:15 - 00:01:52:17 Unknown I like to be educated and to provide education to the simulation community. What is it that makes simulation such a passion of yours? What is it about simulation that that kind of, piqued your interest? It's funny, because when I was a learner, I hated simulation. Hated it because it was something different. It wasn't something that, I guess that was exposed to me in the right manner. 00:01:52:18 - 00:02:27:12 Unknown So, it was, you know, a manikin would be put in front of you and people would be watching you, and you would be given this situation where you had to be put on the spot. And I felt like since I got to experience that, that negativity, I felt like it was, a duty of mine to change that perception because I know there are learners still to this day who will walk into a simulation room and be afraid and don't want to do it. 00:02:27:13 - 00:02:53:13 Unknown And I think, it is our job as providers and educators to change that reality and that perception to where they understand this is a safe space. Learn to make mistakes here and not, you know, on a real patient. So I like to change that narrative. And and I think we're doing a better job of it. But I that's was a direct relation to that. 00:02:53:14 - 00:03:14:10 Unknown How can we change that perception? Can I ask one more follow to that part was, what is it that what were the negative aspects of your experience like specifically? Were there some things that that we should all probably learn from any listeners that hear this? It's like if you're doing this, maybe you're kind of doing your students a disservice, as are 1 or 2 things you could point out. 00:03:14:12 - 00:03:41:02 Unknown Yeah. So I think what it is, is it almost, it's like getting called out in a classroom by your teacher and answering a question. You have to stand up and all their eyes are on you, and it's putting, it's put in you, in the spotlight whether or not you are competent enough to, complete that particular simulation. 00:03:41:03 - 00:04:35:02 Unknown So I think that, that's how it gets reiterated into, a simulation space. At times it can be felt the same way if you're put on the spot, you're put to the test on whether or not you're really competent, to complete that particular simulation. So I think what we have to do as educators is really, do, a better, service in making sure that they're competent, not just a baseline competency, but, as one of my mentors say, is really a fond of, competency based education where we're making sure that we're testing learners over time, building on, the foundation scaffolding, as you will, that 00:04:35:02 - 00:05:06:14 Unknown knowledge so that I it's something really important, I think, that we have to do as educators. Is that so introduced to them topics over time and build on those, principles or foundations of information, to where they're more comfortable going into a simulation room and being confident that they can actually, do the skill or the simulation, and not just be worried about what people think of them. 00:05:06:16 - 00:05:34:14 Unknown So Dan you mentioned you have background in EMS and nursing simulation and medical simulation? What are the similarities and differences between those three disciplines in terms of the types of simulation scenarios that you're running? I think the very first thing I can think of is, is setting. So whether if we're doing EMS, we're it could be in various settings outside. 00:05:34:14 - 00:06:04:08 Unknown We could be in public buildings, patients homes. The list could go on and on. When we talk about nursing, we're primarily going to be in a subacute setting, maybe in, er, nursing home or long or extended care facility. So the, the, the places are a little bit more narrow. But then when we get to medicine, especially here at PCOM, we always put them in a critical care setting. 00:06:04:08 - 00:06:48:02 Unknown So usually emergency room, even maybe an OR setting. So in, in dealing with these different, disciplines, you have to learn to adapt quickly. And I think EMS is is the most difficult because you're always making sure that your learners are immersed in the right situation. And all the different various, situations they could be, put in the nursing is, is really interesting, aspect of it too, because I feel like nursing is provided the most diverse amount of skills as well. 00:06:48:04 - 00:07:14:15 Unknown We're not to say that EMS and medicine aren't instructed a lot on particular skills, but nursing really gets down to the nitty gritty on how to do everything that, a foundational nurse should know how to do from, you know, rolling a patient, you know, or cleaning the bed, baths, making a bed, all the way through critical care. 00:07:14:15 - 00:07:54:09 Unknown So I feel like nursing really, really has an extensive array of skills that they have to learn, through their nursing education. And likewise with these three different disciplines. How what are the for, in your experience, the various challenges from a video perspective, and do you use video in each one of these different types of disciplines? So primarily in our medicine, simulations and we have standardized patient, OSCEs which are a different form of simulation. 00:07:54:11 - 00:08:22:03 Unknown We use video very heavily. So we have somebody who sits in a control center, and we have 15, standardized patient exam rooms, Ascii rooms, and each room has two cameras. So our, simulation tech has to monitor 30 cameras, simultaneously. And although one camera is pointing to an SP, another camera is typically pointing to a student. 00:08:22:04 - 00:08:45:03 Unknown But we have to make sure that the student, primarily is always in view of the SP. So we can, provide feedback to the student, later time and even feedback to our SP, as well, because, maybe they're doing something that they could do better or whatnot. So use of video in our medicine programs is, is heavy. 00:08:45:05 - 00:09:13:19 Unknown Our students and faculty heavily rely on that feedback. Our other programs, nursing, is not so much, but it is a is it is still important. They use it as just for personal feedback where our medicine, they're actually getting graded. It's. Yeah, that's it's that important. So and and for EMS again, we typically will facilitate stuff for EMS outside the Simcenter. 00:09:13:19 - 00:09:41:15 Unknown We have a mobile system that we can use of. So, but primarily medicine is our heavy, our heavy hitters with video and audio. So you also mentioned, the the move to more of a competency based educational framework. How how have you seen video supporting that framework from. Do you use video to assess learners in various scenarios? 00:09:41:15 - 00:10:11:04 Unknown Tell us a little bit about that. I believe that debriefing, using video in a debriefing session is really good, although it can be time consuming, setting up the video or going back to certain parts, knowing, making notes on which parts to go back to. So if the facilitator or the debriefer is not comfortable, using the video to go back to different parts, it can become cumbersome. 00:10:11:04 - 00:10:40:12 Unknown But, I do like personally using video for debriefing. But for competency based education, it's really important for our learners to see themselves over time as they're first introduced to patients or, a mannequin simulation and just see their growth over time and how they're provided, the amount of, information during their coursework and see how they progressed. 00:10:40:14 - 00:11:06:16 Unknown And they can watch themselves, they can take notes, and then they can better themselves for their very next task or simulation. So video is critical, in our, in our daily simulation centers and I oversee three simulation centers, PCM has are our flagship campuses in Philadelphia, but we have two in the state of Georgia as well, outside of Atlanta and South Georgia. 00:11:06:16 - 00:11:44:20 Unknown So we're on our three of our campuses. Our system is is critical. And if it's down, we have, support that we make sure that it's up and running because we cannot move on without it. Are all three campuses kind of tied together on a video platform? Yes. Yeah. So we we're all tied together on one, and then we have our branches for each particular campus, and that's even somebodies, one of my co-directors, Amy helps, manage the logistics for our video, platform. 00:11:45:03 - 00:12:17:01 Unknown So that's that's her primary job. She imparts all the learners name so they can go back and watch their videos later. So all their videos are tied to their accounts. Thinking back to, like, your, your negative experience when you first went through simulation and then your goals of using, you know, simulation and video both like for and of learning, how do you kind of prep students to to enter that world without being, like, anxious, looking at their self on video or being recorded, even when you tell them like, hey, this is just for learning. 00:12:17:04 - 00:12:34:14 Unknown So what does that what's that look like? You also want to be efficient with their use of time. You know, you only have limited time with students. So how do you kind of like prep students to to enter that world, enter the world of of being recorded? Yeah. Which is probably new to a lot of people when they first get into a, you know, nursing program or something. 00:12:34:15 - 00:13:05:02 Unknown It is. So we really start with, when they come to our school as, like a, a student tour. So we really expose them early where they this our university really is, big on doing, student tours and their first stop is always the simulation center. They love to come to the simulation center to get that, you know, come to come to our university, because look at all the cool stuff that we have. 00:13:05:02 - 00:13:30:04 Unknown So we really make sure that we let them know then, you know, look at all the cameras in the room, all the cameras all over the SIM center. And and this is to your benefit. So we let them know even before they're a student. Then again, as their, as their accepted students to our university, we make sure that we pre brief them, you know, appropriately in the very beginning before their first experiences. 00:13:30:09 - 00:13:56:11 Unknown We provide videos, that will go over the simulation experience and, why they're being recorded and the benefits and it sure they're nervous in the beginning. But when we have student ambassadors who provide some of these tours to the other students, some of those students will ask, well, how do you feel about being recorded? And and what do you feel about watching the videos? 00:13:56:11 - 00:14:24:11 Unknown And they'll admit that it's sometimes a little embarrassing, but ultimately, they think it's a great tool, for them to become better providers one day. And they're really learning from it. So I think that the positives outweigh the negatives, and they really look forward to watching their videos. And if they can't see one of their videos, they get very anxious and they want, can you help me find a video I can't access or it's not working the link. 00:14:24:15 - 00:14:50:21 Unknown So they really do count on watching their videos. The, the student ambassador, I can see that being really powerful. It's like with your kids, you know, a parent can tell your kids something so many times, but if they see their friend doing something or they hear their friends can be way more powerful. Exactly, exactly. One of the things that we commonly hear with video is it's it's a very, technical kind of application. 00:14:50:21 - 00:15:14:19 Unknown And yet we also hear, on the other hand, is, it should be really easy to use because there's during that simulation event. Right? There's so many potential moving parts. There could be an instructor in the control room watching and observing what the learners are doing. There could be the same tech that's controlling the manikin and and all that. 00:15:15:02 - 00:15:43:11 Unknown How do you, in your experience, how have you been able to balance the notion of ease of use with technical sophistication of those video systems? We really make sure that our team, is involved in the day to day use of our system. So, when it comes to our, AV platform that we use, we have, bi weekly meetings. 00:15:43:12 - 00:16:13:18 Unknown I'm sorry, bi monthly meetings with that company. So we make sure that our team is fully involved in any updates that happen or any challenges that are, that the company is facing, that they're aware of. And if we do submit tickets, we actually go through those tickets, every two weeks and we determine what the status is, what they did to fix them, what we may have had to do on our side. 00:16:13:19 - 00:16:36:02 Unknown So that's really helpful for us, is that the company actually, meets with us for about an hour every two weeks to really go through that stuff. So we're at least always on the up and up for that system. We also make sure that when we because we have, we have co-ops and work studies that works with us and they change routinely. 00:16:36:04 - 00:17:01:15 Unknown So we make sure that our team is fully, informed on all the AB that, all the AV knowledge that they need to know. So whether or not that they have to, do some professional development with it because they're constantly having to, teach our co-ops and, and work study team members on how they also use the AV system. 00:17:01:20 - 00:17:26:18 Unknown So between our, our company meeting with us and our team doing professional development, make sure that they're fully aware of any changes and maybe latest updates. We are I think I feel like our team is very proficient in the abuse. And that's actually we recruit when we recruit new sim techs we prefer that they have an AV background, IT background. 00:17:26:19 - 00:17:54:10 Unknown So even if they're not maybe AV proficient, they will easily learn it. And be able to use it. How many users are actually actually used the video system outside of, let's say, to students, let's see, I have one on each campus, one primary user on each campus. That over kind of helps oversee us. 00:17:54:11 - 00:18:24:07 Unknown And then I have two remote people, that work on our team, who will, assist with, any type of our programs. And then I have, between the three other campuses, about five other people who routinely use our system. And that's full time people. That's not even including co-ops or or work studies. That sounds like a a pretty large staff compared to other clients. 00:18:24:07 - 00:18:50:15 Unknown And and then I speak with what kinds of challenges do you experience in kind of bringing that team together? So everyone just kind of like on the same page, using video for the same purposes. And, and objectives. So it really helps, Amy, who is oversees that platform really as the leader of that really helps. Make sure that we're all on the same page and, and our chief as well. 00:18:50:21 - 00:19:21:00 Unknown Although I'm the director, for simulation, I do report to a chief of simulated, simulation operations, who's like a Dean level status and, and between the three of us, we really make sure that we operate, although we're three campuses, we operate as one, so we meet regularly of and as a whole team, all three campuses we meet once a week, to make sure that we're always doing the same thing. 00:19:21:00 - 00:19:45:09 Unknown So if a student has to transfer, not transfer, but, go to another university or campus, for a specific reason, maybe it's, because of a clinical psych rotation and they have to go back to campus for something. They're going to get that same exact experience on that campus than they did on their home campus. So we really operate as one university even though we're three campuses. 00:19:45:09 - 00:20:05:20 Unknown So we just make sure that we and we write guides for everything, everything that we do when we run an AC, a simulation, there's a guide that our team follows and that we make sure that it's it's done perfectly. So if one of our team members also has to travel to another campus, it's going to be done exactly the same way. 00:20:05:20 - 00:20:30:21 Unknown So we really try to follow a best practice model. And by following the guidelines that we have put in place for these type of events, for our listeners who may not be familiar with the term, could you define that in kind of talk about its relevance in both from a medical education and a nursing education perspective? 00:20:31:00 - 00:20:46:02 Unknown Yeah, sure. So when it's funny, when I first, got this job and there was a lot of talk about OSCEs, I had to look up the word myself because I have no idea what an OSCE is. And it seemed fairly simple looking at it, but I was like, where do they get this term OSCE you from? 00:20:46:02 - 00:21:15:06 Unknown So OSCE referring to OSCE, objective structured clinical exam. So when and I always put it simply as the experience that you get when you go to the doctor's office where you sit on the exam table on that crunchy plastic, and the doctor gets to ask you questions and they examine you, does does a physical exam that is essentially an OSCE and, at PCOM. 00:21:16:03 - 00:21:42:07 Unknown our students do them routinely, I would say anywhere between 3 and 5 a month, sometimes depending on what they're learning in the classroom. And those OSCEs, basically are parallel to their curriculum in the classroom. So if they're learning cardiovascular in the classroom, their OSCEs are going to relate to, questions related to cardiac. 00:21:42:07 - 00:22:02:14 Unknown They're going to be listening to heart sounds. They're going to be, you know, everything that they do is going to be related to that. And the case may be angina case or congestive heart failure. So they're going to really have to put it all together in the classroom and then bring it to their OSCE, where now it starts to make sense. 00:22:02:14 - 00:22:26:15 Unknown You know, they learned about, you know, assessing somebodies, for a certain type of cardiac, illnesses or disease processes. So and then they have to write a note at the end, that and they only get 14 minutes with, a standardized patient. And then they have only nine minutes to write their note at the end. So it's very, very quick. 00:22:26:17 - 00:22:50:11 Unknown And they have to really learn to get their thoughts together while they're talking to the standardized patient in the room during the OSCE. And then they really have to make sure that when they write their soap note at the end that their their ideas have or formulated correctly, because all that gets graded and then they actually have, formative OSCEs and summative OSCEs where they're scaffolding their information over time. 00:22:50:11 - 00:23:17:19 Unknown And then at the end they have a summative OSCE where it's it's a high stakes exam. So you're with a school, it's a school of osteopathic medicine. Yes. Which correct me if I'm wrong, but I kind of think of that as holistic medicine. How does how would those scenarios, if they differ from what many people might consider traditional medicine if. 00:23:17:19 - 00:23:42:19 Unknown Yeah, if there's really a big difference. So there is not I would say a significant difference, but there is a difference. And sometimes people don't know that there is a difference. Many for many years, I believe that osteopathic physicians and schools may have, gotten, a bad rap, you could say, because people just didn't know what osteopathic medicine is. 00:23:42:19 - 00:24:13:17 Unknown And, you're right, it is a little bit more holistic approach, compared to allopathic schools or an MD school. But, what some people don't know is that those schools are exactly the same in every way except for one, and that is osteopathic schools, teach an additional course or courses related to OMM or osteopathic manipulative medicine. 00:24:14:00 - 00:25:00:10 Unknown So you could think of a kind of like what a chiropractor does where a chiropractor adjusts you. Osteopathic medicine is essentially that, students learn to do, manipulative medicine, to where that is the preferred over, say, medicine or drug treatment therapy. Not that they're against medicine and, and drug treatment therapy, but, they, what we refer to is I as a whole person approach, where they mind and body and, and then work with medicine to come out to, a desired, a desired effect. 00:25:00:10 - 00:25:40:09 Unknown So it's just an extra approach to patient centered care. That's interesting. When you use the word manipulative I think of like physical therapy is. Yeah. Is there kind of a intersection between. Right. So they're used they're using pressure points and, and pressing on certain parts of the body, nerve areas to try and basically like a physical therapist, you know, to, to heal the patient, by manipulating the body in certain ways over a period of time, to help heal the patient. 00:25:40:09 - 00:26:07:04 Unknown And then what's helping the patient is not only are they getting better, but they're not introducing medications into the body, which if you're introducing medications body, you could also be creating other problems, you know, by doing that is something as simple as Tylenol. And that's a big hot topic right now. Tylenol. But you know, that's their, stance. 00:26:07:06 - 00:26:33:01 Unknown That's their perspective is that we try to eliminate introducing things to the body if we can use, osteopathic, theories and applications. First. Changing directions a little bit before we hopped on the podcast and you mentioned or we actually kind of, crossed paths at a recent conference, is it SimGHOSTS SimOps? I was at SimOps.. 00:26:33:01 - 00:27:01:20 Unknown And you gave a talk. Can you tell our audience a little bit about what you were talking about? Yeah. So, my, one of my presentations, I ended up giving three while I was there, but my, my big presentation was integrating AI into building, simulation cases, essentially. So when I wrote the abstract, I didn't know exactly how I wanted to integrate AI for optimal use. 00:27:02:00 - 00:27:56:08 Unknown But I ended up deciding on showing, everybody how to create their own GPT within ChatGPT so it could save time, energy, and basically by preloading, a bunch of information into your own, GPT and then once that all that information has been preset into the GPT, you can just put in a simple, basic prompt, 50 year old female chest pain history of, congestive heart failure and takes, you know, a couple medicines and it will spit, a spell out a complete full length simulation with every detail you can think of. 00:27:56:10 - 00:28:30:14 Unknown That's interesting. Is that simulation a a clinical procedure oriented, or is it kind of like how to go about conducting a patient encounter scenario? So it's going to be from, from the simulation operators perspective. So basically the information that you're going to get is how to set up the simulation. What props to use, the setting that you're going to do it in, learning objectives, it will create at a minimum three learning objectives from this particular prompt. 00:28:30:16 - 00:29:07:04 Unknown And it'll, provide a full set of vital signs, a full set of what you could say is, different, phases that the simulation would go through. So where they might start out as, a stable patient, and then, and for between phase one and phase two, they may have some type of medical condition where the learners will have to intervene and provide an intervention, whether it's medication or some using some type of equipment. 00:29:07:06 - 00:29:33:06 Unknown And then the third phase will be basically the patient either deteriorates or gets better after the interventions that have been applied by the learners. It will also provide live values. It could give although it doesn't give radiology images. It can describe, what an image should look like. If you could find one, this is what, it would recommend. 00:29:33:09 - 00:29:57:21 Unknown So and even some more large if, if there's a an application where, the patient could be more large, maybe some light cyanosis around the lips, or they could look very diaphragmatic. You could, it would put that in there as well. So basically give the educator and the facilitator everything that they need to prepare a simulation case for learners. 00:29:58:01 - 00:30:15:07 Unknown Yeah. Okay. Is this something that you actually are using at your school or is just something that you kind of working on in the side and considering for usage or, or is this it's something I was I was working on the side. We have a team of, faculty members who who create cases, that they like to use. 00:30:15:07 - 00:30:38:09 Unknown But our case is here, a PC. I don't want to say they're simple, but, they have certain objectives that they need to meet in their first two years, that they see us here in the simulation center. We're trying to get them in for a third year. But they're in rotations at third and fourth year, so we can't get too complicated. 00:30:38:11 - 00:31:19:15 Unknown In our simulations and these particular cases that the GPT writes, can get very in depth. Yeah. So, I had gotten the idea because there were some other, directors, who work at other universities, who also had similar ideas, who also have written, similar gets. One was for nursing, one was for medicine. But I wanted my goal was to show how to show the audience how to write one themselves for their university, so I could write one and, like these other a couple people have done. 00:31:19:20 - 00:31:47:06 Unknown But the GPT would be then to my standards. And although that's great, and maybe that would be useful, but I think what would be more useful is if I show you how to write your own GPT, you can put in your own standard from your own university or your own hospital, your own templates. And that way you can build your scenario, not some other universities template scenario. 00:31:47:06 - 00:32:17:04 Unknown So in some applications that's great. But I think in most applications it's you want what is to your standards, you know, not somebody else's standards. Before we wrap up then how do you see AI impacting the video aspect of what you're doing? So we're looking at AI now. We haven't integrated really anything with AI yet just because there are still some, issues. 00:32:17:04 - 00:32:51:06 Unknown It's still not 100% reliable. But we've looked at AI, for to not to replace standardized patients, but to give as an alternative to a standardized patient. Could we put an AI, microphone in the room and put that in 15 rooms? Because that's how many offices we have? Could we put it in 15 rooms and all 15 rooms provide the same exact feedback to the learner. 00:32:51:06 - 00:33:19:10 Unknown If you know, if the learners were to ask similar questions, would they get that same experience? And using that in conjunction with our video, it has the potential to be great. It really does. Do we lose some human factors? Yes we do. So I it's not a replacement by any means, but I definitely think that it's something that we could use, in conjunction with simulation. 00:33:19:10 - 00:33:47:20 Unknown So, say, I mean, and how God forbid that we ever have another pandemic, but, you know, you put an AI microphone in your and your home because you can't leave for some reason. Maybe you're, you know, you're traveling or you're, not near school for some reason, we can really integrate, an AI, tool in conjunction with video. 00:33:48:00 - 00:34:18:04 Unknown You know, we can do it over zoom because zooms and encrypted. So we actually do do some, zoom related, things, regarding, regarding our OS's, but I think that it really does have a lot of potential, but there's a lot of things that we have to, figure out first with AI, but I really do seeing in the next few years that I will still will will almost be standard in simulation. 00:34:18:04 - 00:34:38:07 Unknown I think it just has as quickly as it moved. I think it'll be sooner than later. It'll be interesting to see how it evolves. And you're right, it seems to be every couple of weeks you hear about a new innovation in AI as it continues to improve it. It's, it's fascinating and scary at the same time. It is. 00:34:38:07 - 00:34:57:00 Unknown I would totally agree. I, I use it all the time, but at the same time I have to think like, I hopefully this isn't going to destroy us. And, Danny, as we, this is such a wrap up here, is there anything that we, we didn't discuss that you were hoping to to talk about today? Anything you're actively working on? 00:34:57:02 - 00:35:17:08 Unknown Problems you're at you're you're you're trying to solve that. We didn't talk about that you might want to bring up in our podcast. Yeah. So the only thing that, I probably would like to mention is that, again, like I said, I was involved in EMS for a long time, and, although I'm still a, a, a licensed paramedic, I'm not active anymore. 00:35:17:08 - 00:35:55:16 Unknown But I do like to provide back to the paramedic and EMS community. I'm speaking at a conference, in November at an EMS conference. And my focus is really, soft skills and leadership. So I'm actually completing a doctorate degree. I'm almost done. I'm in my research phase with Thomas Jefferson University here in Philadelphia. And, my theme is, using simulation, for, EMS practitioners who are transitioning from provider to a leadership position. 00:35:55:18 - 00:36:20:13 Unknown In my experience. And I was, and in leadership in EMS and I didn't do great, I loved EMS, I loved EMS management, but I struggled as a manager in EMS because there's a lot of different facets, that are different than than just being a manager elsewhere. Hence why I am now is great. But as an EMS manager, there was a lot of struggles. 00:36:20:13 - 00:36:54:00 Unknown And I found that a lot the turnover high in EMS management. And that's because, those providers who are transitioning to management positions aren't properly prepared, they're not trained well enough, and they're not prepared well enough. Moving into that position, it was a lot of on the job experiences and learning I had to do. And although I did great with some things, communication skills was a struggle and how to talk to people and deal with difficult conversations. 00:36:54:02 - 00:37:24:01 Unknown So I made it my mission to do my thesis and my research. And in using simulation for soft skills and leadership training. So that's what I really like. That's what I'm passionate about right now, is EMS and specifically, leadership and soft skills, capabilities. And I think that could be applied anywhere, not just in the EMS, but I really feel that there's so many books on leadership and management, and I like to read them. 00:37:24:02 - 00:37:48:16 Unknown I'll read them all just because I like I feel like it makes me a better leader. But they all have similar themes, and I think simulation could really be, a really good tool to use. So we've reduced reduced turnover and we keep people involved in doing what they love and not having to move on to something else just because they weren't trained. 00:37:48:16 - 00:38:21:07 Unknown Well enough or they weren't prepared well enough, where you seem like a very good communicator and leader to us. So sounds sounds like you have a long way. I've read, I think hopefully the all the books I read did something. Well. That's awesome. This has been a fantastic, conversation. Dan, how can our listeners get in touch with you if they've got some questions and particularly if they're exploring the world of EMS and simulation, how can they reach out to you? 00:38:21:09 - 00:38:43:20 Unknown Yeah. So I'm very active on LinkedIn. If you just search for my name on LinkedIn, I will pop up. I do write for, healthysimulation.com as well. I do put out articles, for them as well. My contact information is on there, but you can also reach me through my university email dannyop@pcom.edu. 00:38:44:03 - 00:38:54:19 Unknown And, I'm more than happy to answer any questions or help out with anything. Well, thanks for your time. This has been a again, a great conversation. All right. Well, thank you so much. 00:38:56:14 - 00:39:08:15 Unknown On Record is a podcast presented by Intelligent Video Solutions, hosted by Mike Anzalone and Andy Simmons and produced by Kyle Shelstad. Find us online at ipivs.com/onrecord and on social media at Intelligent Video Solutions.